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Nimue

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PostSubject: Re: Comments about the trial   9th October 2013, 8:41 am

posted by Nimue on Wednesday, October 19th 2011

Prince Jackson will not testify in Murray trial, grandmom says

Los Angeles (CNN) -- With testimony on hold while Dr. Conrad Murray's lawyers study a new lab test that prosecutors plan to use against him, speculation about Michael Jackson's oldest son possibly testifying has increased.

But Katherine Jackson, the matriarch of the Jackson family, reconfirmed to CNN Tuesday that she is opposed to Prince Jackson being called as a witness and that there are no discussions going on with prosecutors about it.

.......................................

Murray never spoke to Michael Jackson's mother at the emergency room, contrary to his statement to police, Trent Jackson said.

While the truthfulness of Murray's interview is a major issue in the trial, it is not expected that Prince will be called to testify, the relative said. Katherine Jackson, who has custody of the children, is opposed to any of them being called as witnesses, he said.


more at:

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/10/18/justice/california-conrad-murray-trial/
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PostSubject: Re: Comments about the trial   9th October 2013, 8:42 am

posted by GailShaw on Wednesday, October 19th 2011

Thank-you Nimue for that update about Prince.

Here is a video that I posted on the LAPD thread about what Katherine being interviewed Oprah last year.Oprah asks her about how she found out about Michael on June 25th 2009......

video deleted/removed

If you skip to 12.10sec thats when they start to talk about June 25th 2009....

Also notice how Katherine touches her nose when she answers Oprah about Murray.

Its a sign that someone is not telling the truth.


Now this a complete contradiction to what Trent Jackson says in the article you posted Nimue.......

Below is a piece of the article that Nimue posted....

Murray never spoke to Michael Jackson's mother at the emergency room, contrary to his statement to police, Trent Jackson said.

Cheers

So many contradictions its getting so hard to keep up.
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PostSubject: Re: Comments about the trial   9th October 2013, 8:44 am

posted by The Fairy on Wednesday, October 19th 2011

"gurgle1624" will be uploading videos again on his YouTube channel. He had been hit with copyright issues for posting recordings from the trial, but nice ppl told him that Associated Press and CNN dont have the copyrights to a public trial unless their broadcast is watermarked... So for the coming testimonies I will be adding the vids.

video deleted/removed
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PostSubject: Re: Comments about the trial   9th October 2013, 8:46 am

posted by GailShaw on Wednesday, October 19th 2011

Thanks Elke for the video.It certainly is getting interesting.

Love seeing the 'BREAKING NEWS'headline about Michael.........always reminds me of the song......BREAKING NEWS and the lyrics......they seem to be very fitting ........There's going to be a lot more said about Michael Jackson..............hmmm......



Here is the link to the 2nd video from the same discussion......they are taking calls from the public.

Whats also of interest is what the guy says at the start about this becoming a circumstantial case they can't say for sure what happened.....

Cheers

Thanks The Fairy.

I thnk I am getting the youtube links to work.

I still can't seem to get links to work.

Cheers

Great news for 'gurgle1624'......

I was also wondering like Nimue ......How is it possible to re-test what was in Michaels 'body'after 2.5 years?

Now looking at it from a believers eyes we can see that this is just crazy......

So why doesn't someone question this?
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PostSubject: Re: Comments about the trial   9th October 2013, 8:48 am

posted by The Fairy on Wednesday, October 19th 2011

Nimue wrote:
I have a last comment about this NEW development, it is odd this analysis of the stomach contents by the coroner right now, I thought they had a toxicology report in the AR with the analysis of the stomach contents already.

Why to do it again? I mean, are the results from the defense analysis different from the ones they have there?.
Yes I agree. It is said that only when the Defense dropped their claim that the patient drank the Propofol and changed to the theory of the 8 Lorezepam pills, did David Walgren decide to get the analysis done once more. But there was a big risk that the judge wouldnt have allowed it entered as evidence at this late time. So why would David run such a risk, unless he knew the trial would be delayed in the middle of Schafers testimony and there be time enough to get this analysis done? Unless of course as we know, it is a hoax. Furthermore it is extraordinary how fast the lab suddenly works compared to the other analysis. And I still dont understand how Flanagan could mislead the witnesses with the results. Results are results I would think.
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PostSubject: Re: Comments about the trial   9th October 2013, 8:51 am

posted by Nimue on Wednesday, October 19th 2011

Quote :
Quote from mjmtc on Wednesday, October 19th 2011 @ 4:00 AM

Nimue wrote:
Why to do it again? I mean, are the results from the defense analysis different from the ones they have there?.
Yes I agree. It is said that only when the Defense dropped their claim that the patient drank the Propofol and changed to the theory of the 8 Lorezepam pills, did David Walgren decide to get the analysis done once more. But there was a big risk that the judge wouldnt have allowed it entered as evidence at this late time. So why would David run such a risk, unless he knew the trial would be delayed in the middle of Schafers testimony and there be time enough to get this analysis done? Unless of course as we know, it is a hoax. Furthermore it is extraordinary how fast the lab suddenly works compared to the other analysis. And I still dont understand how Flanagan could mislead the witnesses with the results. Results are results I would think.
That is what I am saying. They already got the results for the test. They alleged asked the coroner to test last wednesday and it was done before Friday.

So the judge gave to the defense Monday and Tuesday to analyze the results from the coroner "the NEW DEVELOPMENT".

But as far as I can remember took a long time to the coroner to do the toxicology report at the AR.I even made a comment at that time that I could have the analysis done at my lab in 1 hour or so when we were discussing this some time ago.

GailShaw wrote:
I was also wondering like Nimue ......How is it possible to re-test what was in Michaels 'body'after 2.5 years?
This is easy, all the samples are kept in the freezer under preservation, my point is why it wasn't done before if they said they did on the autopsy report.

GailShaw wrote:
Love seeing the 'BREAKING NEWS'headline about Michael;always reminds me of the song;BREAKING NEWS and the lyrics; hey seem to be very fitting
Yes I agree Gail, I think this song and all the controversy about Michael's voice and such has a lot to do with this trial.. all at that time... family members allegedly saying it was not Michael's voice in Breaking News and now people saying may not be Michael's voice on the Murray recorded message, the lyrics where "to write my obtuary" is included and it is not part of the lyrics and so on.

Thanks for the video, I am watching now

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PostSubject: Re: Comments about the trial   9th October 2013, 8:52 am

posted by GailShaw on Wednesday, October 19th 2011

No worries Nimue.

Thank-you for your reply.

Thats what I meant about the tests why now?


This is actually the first part of this ......they have a phone in session.....................as the interview says the public are the 13th juror........

So this could get the general public questionning what is really going on here.......

Cheers

I think these videos are maybe out of order.

maybe there will be a lot of questions unanswered.....
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PostSubject: Re: Comments about the trial   9th October 2013, 8:53 am

posted by Nimue on Wednesday, October 19th 2011

It is interesting that people is noticing that a lot of things are odd. Also interesting that they really don't answer the questions, they evade to the standard care issue changing the focus of the question.

If you pay attention they didn't really answer the questions.

For exemple, where are the gallons of propofol ordered? Still under Murray's reach? Was he allowed to keep it?

Would he be allowed to ship his "storage" of propofol to London?

Were those gallons found at his clinic or they are still stored at his girlfriend house?
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PostSubject: Re: Comments about the trial   9th October 2013, 8:54 am

posted by ElkeHassell on Wednesday, October 19th 2011

Quote :
Quote from Nimue on Wednesday, October 19th 2011 @ 5:25 AM

That is what I am saying. They already got the results for the test. They alleged asked the coroner to test last wednesday and it was done before Friday.

So the judge gave to the defense Monday and Tuesday to analyze the results from the coroner "the NEW DEVELOPMENT".
The observation I made was when asked at the trial if the stomach contents was tested, the answer was no. Why not, answer there are no facilities available for that kind of testing ?????? Ohhhhh

Then listening to the video from the "In Session" guy, he actually mentions this by saying, "I thought that there was no facility available to test the contents, so where was it done" (not the exact words but similar if you get the drift) No answer to that question once again.

So yes, where indeed was this test done in such a hurry in a matter of a couple of days, and like you said before "and why in the first instance, as it was already clearly stated by the forensic witness that the stomach had a minute almost no notable trace of lorazepam in the stomach content. So whether Flanagan kept hinting or not whether MJ swallowed 8 pills or not, the answer to that was already given, that obviously MJ did not according to the low traces found in his stomach. I really don't get this and I feel a lot of people outside of our circle starting to wonder as well, that this case seems so different from any other cases before.

And yes, I remember Katherine clearly telling Oprah that it was Murray who came to tell her about MJ death. Also Dileo apparantely happened to do the same, as it was said that he came to the room where they were and just blurrted it out "Your father is dead", so like MJ keeps asking "Who is it"

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PostSubject: Re: Comments about the trial   9th October 2013, 8:56 am

posted by The Fairy on Wednesday, October 19th 2011

Quote :
Quote from Nimue on Wednesday, October 19th 2011 @ 5:25 AM

So the judge gave to the defense Monday and Tuesday to analyze the results from the coroner "the NEW DEVELOPMENT".

But as far as I can remember took a long time to the coroner to do the toxicology report at the AR.I even made a comment at that time that I could have the analysis done at my lab in 1 hour or so when we were discussing this some time ago.
Yes it took a very long time
Here is Peter Lopez talking about the report still not out, 7 weeks after June 25



Interesting things from the Murray interview when Murray is asked about Michaels medical condition and previous treatments..



And a little later we have Ed Chernoff asking for any hints to the toxicology report.. a little early to do that on June 27.. when the report was 6 weeks in the works



And again Murray calls attention to Klein

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PostSubject: Re: Comments about the trial   9th October 2013, 9:01 am

posted by ElkeHassell on Wednesday, October 19th 2011

http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/18/where-did-all-the-michael-jackson-fans-go/

On Thursday, 53-year-old Michael Rico stood quietly outside the Los Angeles County Courthouse. Though the weather was hot, and court had already begun, Rico calmly remained, holding a signed photo of Jackson and a sign reading, "Soldiers of Love."

"I come here every day to support Michael," said Rico, a Hollywood resident who spent years working security for Jackson. "He was not only a friend, but I'm a fan as well."

Rico comes to the courthouse each day to hold his sign and show his support. He said he feels obligated to defend the late music legend, who he said he saw the day before his death.

"I know for a fact that he got killed by Dr. Murray," Rico said. "All the medicine shows Michael was not able to overdose himself. Conrad Murray gave it to him."

At the close of last week (week three) of the Michael Jackson death trial, in which Dr. Conrad Murray is charged with involuntary manslaughter of the singer, fanfare was sparse, with fewer than 20 vying for seats in the courthouse.

More than 40 sought seats on the first day of the Murray trial, but for the late pop star, a man so often associated with fiercely loyal fans, the turnout pales in comparison to other Jackson-centered events.

Steve Moglia, a freelance audio technician, who worked with "CourtTV" (now "In Session") to cover Jackson's molestation trial, says fan turnout for the 2005 proceedings was overwhelming.

"The streets were packed," said Moglia. "They'd come and go, and you'd have the hardcore ones that were there and then those that would find out he was going to be there and fly in."

According to "In Session" senior field producer Grace Wong, who also covered the 2005 trial for "CourtTV," the number of demonstrators was in the hundreds, particularly near the beginning and end of proceedings.

"It's nothing like the attendance that was at Michael Jackson's trial," Wong said. "You had the length of two city blocks. There was an international presence I have never seen at any other trial."

She said each day when Jackson arrived to court, he was greeted with a roaring crowd of fans holding signs, playing his music and dancing. When he was ultimately acquitted of all charges of child molestation, a fan outside the courthouse released doves in celebration.

"His fans as a group felt misunderstood by society, and he was misunderstood by society," said Mark Somers an "In Session" producer who has covered Jackson since his 2005 trial. "They felt like he was in their corner. It was alright for them to fight for him. He allowed them to feel like they could be themselves in a united front under Michael Jackson."

The 2005 trial was not the only demonstration of Jackson fan loyalty. After his death, supporters gathered in masses at Jackson's home, the hospital where he died and at his star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. Fans around the world held candlelight vigils, embraced and sang his songs.

"Clearly these are people who have in some way an emotional connection to Michael," said psychotherapist and author Beatty Cohan. "I think it [his death] was a shock. Maybe for them they needed that kind of closure to go and know and see that it was really all over."

Fans also showed up in droves for the Michael Jackson tribute concert in Wales on October 8, with a turnout of 50,000. On August 29, what would have been the star's 53rd birthday, fan observations included a multi-day celebration in Jackson's hometown of Gary, Indiana, and a flash mob in Hollywood.

"I think what Michael Jackson had with fans over others is they felt a connection with him on a superhuman level," Somers said "They felt the need to protect him even though they didn't know him."

Though fan presence at the trial has dwindled, Cohan said the lower turnout makes sense, considering the trial's somber tone and less controversial nature.

"With the molestation trial it was more of a soap opera," she said. "People were really split with whether or not he did it or whether or not he didn't do it. For people who like to come out and protest or demonstrate the molestation case was much more exciting than this."

Somers agreed, saying during the 2005 trial, fans were more driven to protest what they viewed as unjust allegations.

"They felt the right to stand up for people who are abused by people in positions of authority," Somers said of the mindsets of many Jackson fans.

Beatty adds that the mere absence of Jackson, whose arrivals at the molestation trial incited roars of applause and cheering, contributes to the smaller turnout.

"Michael is dead," she said. "Nobody is gong to see him. He isn't going to be waving to anybody."

While fans may not be present in numbers comparable to past Jackson events, turnout at the tribute concert and celebration of the singer's would-be birthday shows his supporters remain united.

"You still see it today," Wong said. "I see it at this trial. He had this incredible relationship with his fans. They felt that they knew him. They really shared a bond. The fans adored him and he could do nothing wrong."

Complete courtroom coverage of the Conrad Murray trial airs live on HLN from gavel to gavel. It’s also on In Session on truTV from 9 a.m. to 3 p.m. ET every weekday.
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PostSubject: Re: Comments about the trial   9th October 2013, 9:04 am

posted by The Fairy on Wednesday, October 19th 2011

Dr. Conrad Murray
Defense Calls MJ Doctor
It Could Backfire Bigtime




Dr. Conrad Murray's lawyers will call one of Michael Jackson's doctors to the stand, and our sources say it could blow up in their faces.

Dr. David Adams -- a Las Vegas anesthesiologist -- treated MJ on 4 occasions, administering Propofol during dental procedures.

Dr. Murray told cops during his LAPD interview that Dr. Adams was one of the docs who gave MJ Propofol just to sleep ... once putting the singer under for 5 or 6 hours while Murray says he was present.


http://tmz.vo.llnwd.net/o28/newsdesk/tmz_documents/1007_conrad_murray_transcript_middle.pdf
Murray also told cops MJ had asked Adams to be his doctor during the "This is It" tour, and Adams wanted between $1.2 and $1.3 million.

We're told the defense will call Dr. Adams to the stand -- possibly as early as today -- to establish that MJ was a hard-core Propofol user and that other doctors, including Adams, were fueling his addiction.

But here's what we know. Sources connected to Dr. Adams tell TMZ ... Adams will make it clear -- he NEVER put Michael under just to help him sleep, although Adams will say he did administer Propofol for legitimate dental procedures.

But even more important ... Adams wants to tell the jury he strongly believes Michael became a victim to Murray's financial greed. Adams will say Murray actually negotiated with him and cut him out of the tour so Murray would be the sole beneficiary of Michael's medical budget.



Big Backfires

Abercrombie Stock PLUMMETS After Dissing 'Jersey Shore'
Charlie Sheen -- Bombed in Detroit
'Amazing Race' Chick Takes Watermelon to the Face

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PostSubject: Re: Comments about the trial   9th October 2013, 9:05 am

posted by Nimue on Thursday, October 20th 2011

Quote :
Dr. Conrad Murray's lawyers will call one of Michael Jackson's doctors to the stand, and our sources say it could blow up in their faces.

Dr. David Adams -- a Las Vegas anesthesiologist -- treated MJ on 4 occasions, administering Propofol during dental procedures.
f this happens TMZ will be the first to report again. This article was published by TMZ in the middle of Dr. Shafer testimony, the prosecutors are not done yet, Shafer was not questioned by the defense and TMZ is talking at the same time about the defense witness which seems to be hostile to the case.

When other tabloids talk about the defense witnesses they say: 2 doctors, 2 detectives and 4 persons/patients that know Murray.

Quote :
Murray also told cops MJ had asked Adams to be his doctor during the "This is It" tour, and Adams wanted between $1.2 and $1.3 million.
Also weird this part, because Murray was getting $1.8 million, so what is the point?
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PostSubject: Re: Comments about the trial   9th October 2013, 3:55 pm

posted by Nimue on Thursday, October 20th 2011

]Michael Jackson Overdose Re-Enacted In Court Video

The Witness
» Dr. Steven Shafer, anesthesiologist

Key Testimony
» After the trial was recessed for two days to allow Shafer to attend a conference -- which he did not make it to in light of his father's death -- the anesthesiologist, who emphasized the fact that his pro bono consultation on the case is motivated by his desire to restore faith in the public that propofol is not fatal when administered and monitored properly, completed his testimony from last week. Shafer, an expert on the surgical anesthetic propofol, narrated a video in which jurors watched an actor pretending to go into cardiac arrest while being administered propofol. The Los Angeles coroner's office determined that Jackson died of "acute propofol intoxication," which caused the singer to go into cardiac arrest.

» In the video, doctors and nurses successfully revive the patient using equipment and staffing that Murray did not have in Jackson's home. The dramatic re-enactment capped a case from the prosecution aimed at proving that Murray acted in a negligent, unprofessional manner in his treatment of Jackson.

» Murray lawyer Ed Chernoff argued vehemently against showing the video, calling it "a terrifying dramatization of a person experiencing cardiac arrest" that he said was intended to inflame the jurors' minds. Prosecutors countered that it was aimed at educating jurors about the safe way to administer propofol. A judge allowed the video but ordered Deputy District Attorney David Walgren to re-edit the video mid-morning to delete several scenes that he said were not relevant to the case.

» Over the course of the afternoon, the prosecution walked Shafer through his analysis of 17 major infractions -- what Shafer termed "egregious violations" -- in Murray's treatment of Jackson. Four of those violations were deemed "fundamentally unconscionable," such as Murray's failure to purchase and implement the proper medical monitoring devices and his failure to chart and document his treatment of Jackson, or keep any records. "It's a setup for disaster," Shafer said, adding that the violations were all contributing factors in Jackson's death.


http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1672843/michael-jackson-conrad-murray-death-trial-steven-shafer.jhtml

Quote :
Quote from Nimue on Wednesday, October 19th 2011 @ 6:15 AM

For exemple, where are the gallons of propofol ordered? Still under Murray's reach? Was he allowed to keep it?
Ok, I am quoting myself again and going crazy here. This question is bugging me and yesterday Dr. Shafer estimated Murray was using 1 bottles of 100 mg of propofol a day. The math does not add up, so I made some calculations:

Murray bought:

130 of 100 mg bottles;

125 of 20 mg bottles;

21 saline bags:

Let’s assume Murray stated to give propofol to some patient on April 10 and ended at Jun 25 (77 days "the sevens again), skipping 2 days (23 and 24), so we have 75 days (Sundays included, Murray days off).

Elissa Fleak found 1 bottle of 100mg empty plus 5 bottles of 20 mg empty or used and 2 saline bags. I will take that this amount is one used in one night.

For 75 days in this ratio he would have used =

75 bottles of 100 mg and 375 bottles of 20 mg.

So from the 130 (100mg)  – 75 = 55 bottles missing…

But from 125 (20 mg) -375 = - 250 bottles ( he was short on 250 bottles)

But 4 bottles of (20 mg) were unopened, what shows he didn’t use the 125 bottles he had, but only 121 bottles and 2(100mg) were unopened 55-2 = 53 bottles.

From this calculation we have so far

He alleged used 121 out of 125 but to keep the same dose for 75 days he would need more 250 bottles;

He alleged used 75 bottles out of 128 (2 unopened) and left 53 bottles but those were not found.

On top of that he would need at least 2 saline bags a day/night:

For 75 days he would need 150 saline bags

150 - 21 = 129 saline bags short.

Using the saline bags he had he would have this only for 10,5 days.

How is this possible?
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PostSubject: Re: Comments about the trial   9th October 2013, 3:59 pm

posted by ElkeHassell on Thursday, October 20th 2011

http://lockerz.com/s/148854085

Anthony McCartney from the Associated Press inside Court Room via twitter

http://twitter.com/#!/mccartneyAP

mccartneyAP Anthony McCartney

Chernoff also told judge his cross examination would take 90 mins or so. Judge Pastor asked "Is that in Flanagan hours?" #murraytria

mccartneyAP Anthony McCartney
RT @caramelicedtea: I can't even tell if this is a joke, too close to truth. RT: @mccartneyAP Judge Pastor asked "Is that in Flanagan hours?


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PostSubject: Re: Comments about the trial   9th October 2013, 4:02 pm

posted by Nimue on Friday, October 21st 2011

Thanks Elke, I see you are fighting with forum "features"Laughing

I do it for a long time.

The whole comments is on Eonline:

UPDATE: 3:10 p.m.: White, who described Shafer as a friend and colleague, tells E! News that Deputy District Attorney David Walgren's treatment of the evidence has been "unethical and unconscionable." Shafer's testimony, however, has changed the way he thinks of him, White says. "I am going to take the high road, not the low road with him," he adds. "I was his teacher when he was a medical student. The truth will come out. It always does."

This is Paul White:


UPDATE 3:05 p.m. Pastor immediately called for a break after Murray lost his cool in response to Shafer using an actual infusion stand to demonstrate how Murray could have dosed Michael Jackson with propofol. "Can you believe that?" Murray whispered to Dr. Paul White, an expected defense witness. "What a scumbag," White told the media seated near him.

UPDATE 1:15 p.m.: Shafer also disputed the defense's contention that Jackson ingested eight 2-miligram tablets of lorazepam, the sedative that Murray's attorneys are now training their sights on, between 8 a.m. and noon on the day he died. The true amount was "much, much smaller," the anesthesiologist said. As far as the propofol went, Shafer added, Jackson had been given more than the 25 miligrams Murray told police he'd administered to the singer.


Family members there:

UPDATE 8:30 a.m.: Jackson family members Katherine, Joe, Rebbie and Randy in the courtroom for this session.

http://www.eonline.com/news/michael_jackson_manslaughter_trial/270524


PS: Paul White is a witness for the defense ALLOWED by the judge to WATCH other witness testimony!
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PostSubject: Re: Comments about the trial   9th October 2013, 4:10 pm

posted by mjmtc on Friday, October 21st 2011

Just a few twitters from the link Elke posted..
cause we talked about dr White yesterday..


mccartneyAP Anthony McCartney
RT @Junky4Justice: I have a question. Why is Dr. White allowed to hear Dr. Shafer's testimony? Wouldn't that taint White's testimony?


mccartneyAP Anthony McCartney
.@Junky4Justice Expert witnesses are allowed to sit in on others' testimony. So are certain investigators. Det Smith sat in on parts of case


mccartneyAP Anthony McCartney

.@Junky4Justice As experts, they're allowed to sit in to give their opinions and appropriate rebuttal. They often have access to reports...
13 Oct



mccartneyAP Anthony McCartney
.@Junky4Justice ... reports that public doesn't have access to.
13 Oct


mccartneyAP Anthony McCartney
Yes. And experts have to be well-vetted RT @lmt4justice: Guess assumption would be under oath and will not affect truthful testimony.


mccartneyAP Anthony McCartney
No prob, I try to get to as many Qs as possible RT @Junky4Justice: @mccartneyAP Oh ok, thanks for clearing that up for us Anthony.

13 Oct


sarawatson20 Sara Watson
by mccartneyAP
@mccartneyAP Yesterday I heard the prosecution & Judge Pastor saying pls doctor sit down you're making distraction..to whom those words were
14 Oct



mccartneyAP Anthony McCartney
.@sarawatson20 Judge was referencing defense expert Dr. Paul White - he was unhappy that White was passing notes loudly to def attys
14 Oct


Nimue showed us the vid of the reporters being on a different floor from the courtroom and Im just wondering if they do at all get any other feed to work with than what we get.. the last tweet here indicates someone has a view of the jurors...


mccartneyAP Anthony McCartney
Murray case is not quite in session yet - dealing with some (unknown to me) issues before Dr. Steven Shafer takes the stand again.

19 Oct
mccartneyAP Anthony McCartney
Will update after the first break what is being discussed now, if it's important. (We don't get courtroom feed when jury isn't in)
19 Oct


mccartneyAP Anthony McCartney
When Dr. Shafer was talking about Murray failing Jackson's family, at least a couple jurors looked out into audience. #murraytrial


Quote :
Quote from Nimue on Thursday, October 20th 2011 @ 7:57 AM


Ok, I am quoting myself again and going crazy here. This question is bugging me and yesterday Dr. Shafer estimated Murray was using 1 bottles of 100 mg of propofol a day. The math does not add up, so I made some calculations:

From this calculation we have so far
He alleged used 121 out of 125 but to keep the same dose for 75 days he would need more 250 bottles;

He alleged used 75 bottles out of 128 (2 unopened) and left 53 bottles but those were not found.

On top of that he would need at least 2 saline bags a day/night:

For 75 days he would need 150 saline bags

150 - 21 = 129 saline bags short.

Using the saline bags he had he would have this only for 10,5 days.

How is this possible?
Yeah Nimue... hold that thought...leave it to you always to do the math.. hehe...

It is indeed very good point, but probably a question not asked like so many times before


For those who missed trial yesterday (Thursday) or parts of it Im posting as usual the first vid in the specific witness testimony of that day from "gurgle1624"s uploaded vids

Thursday trial is... vids 183 - 200 starting with a yawning Murray...

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PostSubject: Re: Comments about the trial   9th October 2013, 4:13 pm

posted by Nimue on Friday, October 21st 2011

Quote :
Quote from The Fairy on Friday, October 21st 2011 @ 1:31 AM

Nimue showed us the vid of the reporters being on a different floor from the courtroom and Im just wondering if they do at all get any other feed to work with than what we get.. the last tweet here indicates someone has a view of the jurors...
Anthony McCartney
mccartneyAP Anthony McCartney
Murray case is not quite in session yet - dealing with some (unknown to me) issues before Dr. Steven Shafer takes the stand again.

19 Oct
mccartneyAP Anthony McCartney
Will update after the first break what is being discussed now, if it's important. (We don't get courtroom feed when jury isn't in)
19 Oct
»
Anthony McCartney
mccartneyAP Anthony McCartney
When Dr. Shafer was talking about Murray failing Jackson's family, at least a couple jurors looked out into audience. #murraytrial
Reading this 2 tweets I got the feeling that he is not inside of the courtroom.. First tweet "We don't get courtroom feed when jury isn't in" but the second gives the impression that he is because he describes a couple of jurors.

I am thinking that maybe they are not inside of the courtroom but they have a different view from the cameras than we have.


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PostSubject: Re: Comments about the trial   9th October 2013, 4:18 pm

posted by ElkeHassell on Friday, October 21st 2011

Conrad Murray’s defense cracking? Ed Chernoff's Argument heard in court hallway

The defense team has yet to lay out their side of the story at the manslaughter trial of Dr. Conrad Murray in Los Angeles. Yet , there appears to be issues with the defense team attorneys. The lead defense attorney for Conrad Murray’s case Ed Chernoff, along with the defense experts, anesthesiologist Dr. Paul White were overheard yelling at each other in an elevator on Thursday afternoon.

According to an eyewitness, who also works for CNN, this wasn’t the typical debate but a basic shouting match. Alan Duke refused to give exact details, but said the two were discussing the aspect of "taking things personally."

While hashing out details is typical for courtroom drama, yelling outside the courtroom in an elevator with the press hovering around isn’t typical. In fact most attorneys will go out of their way not to share any details around the media as it might tip off the other party in the case.

It’s no secret that Dr. Paul White who is testifying for the defense and Dr. Steven Shafer, who was on the stand for the prosecution, are friend. In fact they have known each other for over 30 years, however the stakes of this case for the two could propel either of them into a position of greater influence in the medical community.

There is also an urgent request handed out to report Defense Witness Dr. White to the LA Court for his comments that are now all in the press




there is an urgent request to report Dr. White to the District Attorney's office or the LA Court for his statements are now all over the press

BREAKING!
Michael Jackson Manslaughter Trial: Conrad Murray Defense Witness Calls Propofol Expert a "Scumbag"




UPDATE 4 p.m.: Court has adjourned for the day and will resume Friday at 12:45 p.m. The defense, which had expected to start its case tomorrow, has yet to cross-examine Dr. Shafer.

UPDATE: 3:10 p.m.: White, who described Shafer as a friend and colleague, tells E! News that Deputy District Attorney David Walgren's treatment of the evidence has been "unethical and unconscionable." Shafer's testimony, however, has changed the way he thinks of him, White says. "I am going to take the high road, not the low road with him," he adds. "I was his teacher when he was a medical student. The truth will come out. It always does."

UPDATE 3:05 p.m. Pastor immediately called for a break after Murray lost his cool in response to Shafer using an actual infusion stand to demonstrate how Murray could have dosed Michael Jackson with propofol. "Can you believe that?" Murray whispered to Dr. Paul White, an expected defense witness. "What a scumbag," White told the media seated near him.

MORE: Propofol expert calls Michael Jackson's death an "expected outcome" of Murray's neglect

UPDATE 1:15 p.m.: Shafer also disputed the defense's contention that Jackson ingested eight 2-miligram tablets of lorazepam, the sedative that Murray's attorneys are now training their sights on, between 8 a.m. and noon on the day he died. The true amount was "much, much smaller," the anesthesiologist said. As far as the propofol went, Shafer added, Jackson had been given more than the 25 miligrams Murray told police he'd administered to the singer.

UPDATE 10 a.m.: Shafer said that injecting propofol into a vein with a syringe or finding an injection port would take a bit of "time and coordination." The Columbia University Medical Center doc noted that Murray told police that Jackson's veins were so unavailable he had started giving him IVs below his left knee.

UPDATE 9:20 a.m.: Dr. Shafer says there is "zero" chance Michael Jackson died from oral ingestion of propofol, citing tests that had been done on mice, piglets, dogs and monkeys. Shafer adds that there hasn't been a study on humans because "it was obvious" it wouldn't work because there would be no bio-availability. Plus, when ingested orally, Shafer said, the drug is quickly broken down by the liver. He cited a test on patients in Chile who showed "no sedation" after swallowing 200 or 400 miligrams of propofol.

UPDATE 8:55 a.m.: Dr. Steven Shafer takes the stand to continue his testimony for the second day under questioning from prosecutors.

UPDATE 8:30 a.m.: Jackson family members Katherine, Joe, Rebbie and Randy in the courtroom for this session.

Conrad Murray's team has a tough nut to crack today.

On day 14 of his trial on an involuntary manslaughter charge in the death of Michael Jackson, the defense will commence its cross-examination of Dr. Steve Shafer, an expert on propofol who on the stand yesterday absolutely castigated Murray's treatment of Jackson.

"The facts in this case, in my view...virtually none of the safeguards were in place when propofol was administered to Mr. Jackson," Shafer testified. He also called it "inexcusable" that Murray did not immediately call 911 the second he noticed Jackson in respiratory distress, especially considering Murray was apparently "clueless in what to do."

Deputy District Attorney David Walgren is expected to rest his case once Shafer steps down. Murray's camp has informed Judge Michael Pastor that they plan to call 15 witnesses and wrap their own case toward the middle of next week.


http://www.eonline.com/news/michael_jackson_manslaughter_trial/270524#ixzz1bQfT81s4

http://da.co.la.ca.us/feedback.htm#email is the contact email for the LA Court


I actually just finished calling the DA Office at the LA Court and reported this. They sounded like they are not even aware of this and said the will investigate and call me back, despite the fact that I live in Barbados.

District Attorney's Office
County of Los Angeles
210 West Temple Street, Suite 18000
Los Angeles, CA 90012-3210

Telephone (213) 974-3512
Fax (213) 974-1484




TTY (800) 457-7778
(8:30am - 5:00pm M-F)


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PostSubject: Re: Comments about the trial   9th October 2013, 4:20 pm

posted by Nimue on Friday, October 21st 2011

Very interesting:

Quote :
It’s no secret that Dr. Paul White who is testifying for the defense and Dr. Steven Shafer, who was on the stand for the prosecution, are friend. In fact they have known each other for over 30 years, however the stakes of this case for the two could propel either of them into a position of greater influence in the medical community.
I heard that Paul was Steven's teacher but friends? Weird to have friends in oposite sides
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PostSubject: Re: Comments about the trial   9th October 2013, 4:20 pm

posted by ElkeHassell on Friday, October 21st 2011

WEll I am still waiting for the return phone call from the District Attorney's Office, LOL.

Somehow after the fact I studied this phone conversation I had with them.

When initially answered I spoke to a Lady that answered with the district attorneys office good morning. I stated my case and somehow I got the feeling she did not even know what I was talking about. With that she said I think I have to transfer you to our media office, ok, another Lady answered, I yet again stated the case, her first comment was "do you mean somebody from the Jury talked, I was like No I am talking about Dr. White who is one of the Defense Witnesses yet to be called by the Defense, her reply, ohhh, well we will do some investigation and will call you back.

Looking at now I somehow got a funny feeling about this, simply because a lot of people have contacted the DA office already, as I was pointed to this by several Justice for MJ groups, and I know they would have contacted them already, so to me the response seems like they did not even know what I am talking about.

Just saying........
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PostSubject: Re: Comments about the trial   9th October 2013, 4:31 pm

posted by The Fairy on Friday, October 21st 2011

Cool that you called, Elke. I cant help thinking if this isnt just drama added to the case. To me it seems like an act. Dr White should know better than to display bad manners like this and so far he has both made the judge react because he allegedly passed notes to the Defense attorneys and apparently said those words about dr Shafer.

I think the judge could hold him in contempt of court if he wanted to. I dont know if that would still allow him to testify.

What I am wondering is, what is this all for? Why would dr White have any interest in getting so agitated by dr Shafer's statements? He is acting like he is one of Murrays closest friends. Why the urgent need to defend Murray? What is it to him?

Dr White and dr Shafer are close friends, so why side with Murray? Why side with anyone? I thought witnesses not related to dr Murray would be expected to remain neutral and objective, especially when it comes to doctors.

Why damage yourself before you are even testifying.

Is it all just a show? And did he really say these things?

We have it from the media, who we know will lie any chance they get. Yesterday on chat I mentioned that now that dr Shafer has established that Michael couldnt have self administered, what would the media throw themselves on next.... and voila... they have this drama case to get excited about.

I wonder if dr White is being paid for his testimony. I remember dr Shafer saying he was working pro bono, but that "others" were being paid, although he said he didnt know who.



Notice dr White's facial expressions at 0:20.. (watch from the very beginning) hehehe.... dr Shafer is crediting his findings to dr White's paper and calls him "my friend and collegue"

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Contempt of court is a court order which, in the context of a court trial or hearing, declares a person or organization to have disobeyed or been disrespectful of the court's authority. Often referred to simply as "contempt," such as a person "held in contempt," it is the judge's strongest power to impose sanctions for acts which disrupt the court's normal process.

A finding of contempt of court may result from a failure to obey a lawful order of a court, showing disrespect for the judge, disruption of the proceedings through poor behaviour, or publication of material deemed likely to jeopardize a fair trial. A judge may impose sanctions such as a fine or jail for someone found guilty of contempt of court. Judges in common law systems usually have more extensive power to declare someone in contempt than judges in civil law systems. The client or person must be proven to be guilty before he/she will be punished.

Under American jurisprudence, acts of contempt are divided into two types.

 


Direct contempt is that which occurs in the presence of the presiding judge (in facie curiae) and may be dealt with summarily: the judge notifies the offending party that he or she has acted in a manner which disrupts the tribunal and prejudices the administration of justice. After giving the person the opportunity to respond, the judge may impose the sanction immediately.

Indirect contempt occurs outside the immediate presence of the court and consists of disobedience of a court's prior order. Generally a party will be accused of indirect contempt by the party for whose benefit the order was entered. A person cited for indirect contempt is entitled to notice of the charge and an opportunity for hearing of the evidence of contempt and to present evidence in rebuttal.
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PostSubject: Re: Comments about the trial   9th October 2013, 4:33 pm

posted by ElkeHassell on Friday, October 21st 2011

Conrad Murray judge: Did witness call drug expert a 'scumbag'?
Fri Oct 21 2011 3:28 PM




The judge in the trial of Michael Jackson’s personal physician said Friday that he was considering contempt-of-court charges against a key defense witness for reportedly calling a prosecution expert “a scumbag.”

Dr. Paul White, set to take the stand for the defense next week, denied in court making the remark, which was reported by E! Online Thursday.

He did acknowledge to Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor that he made other critical comments about a fellow anesthesiologist, Dr. Steven Shafer, to E!.

“I am going to take the high road, not the low road with him,” the network’s website quoted White as him saying. “I was his teacher when he was a medical student. The truth will come out. It always does.”

Pastor set a hearing for Nov. 16 for possible sanctions against White and defense attorneys for Dr. Conrad Murray.

The judge, who previously issued a gag order against trial participants, told White outside the presence of the jury: “You have no business making any of those comments.”

Shafer is the most important medical witness for the prosecution, and White serves the same role for the defense. The men, longtime colleagues who have described themselves as friends, disagree on what scientific evidence shows about Jackson’s death.

In White’s report, he said it was possible the singer caused his own death by drinking propofol, a theory Shafer dismissed as clearly impossible.

On the witness stand, Shafer said was “disappointed” by White, who was sitting in the well of the court behind the defense table.

White was a professor at Stanford Medical School when Shafer was a student, but in testimony Friday, Shafer emphasized that he did not consider White his teacher.
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PostSubject: Re: Comments about the trial   9th October 2013, 4:36 pm

posted by Nimue on Friday, October 21st 2011

Elke they answered your phone call:

Michael Jackson Manslaughter Trial: Judge Gags Defense Witness After Media Outburst

UPDATE 4 p.m.: Court adjourned for the day and Pastor ordered everyone to report back Monday at 8:45 a.m.

UPDATE 2:40 p.m.: The defense immediately got to challenging Shafer's conclusions pertaining to Jackson's death, that it was most unlikely he took as much lorazepam as Murray contended and that he most certainly did not give himself propofol. "That's a bold claim, isn't it?" Chernoff questioned him. "That's what I think happened," Shafer responded. "Everything you've said is an opinion," Chernoff said, to which Shafer replied, slamming Murray, "It might be the position that I have as a physician. To say that one should not lie to UCLA Medical Center is my opinion."

Noting that he purchased the propofol and equipment that was used in yesterday's demo, Shafer quipped, "I hope to be reimbursed."

UPDATE 1 p.m.: Before testimony began today, Pastor admonished White for yesterday's outburst, giving him a "clear and unequivocal order" prohibiting him from discussing his thoughts on counsel or any witnesses with the media. Pastor read White's remarks to E! News back to him and White admitted that he made the published comments. White said he could not remember whether he used the word "scumbag" inside the courtroom, however. A hearing has been set for Nov. 16 to determine whether White's behavior amounts to contempt of court.

Well, that was exciting!

We mean the abrupt end to yesterday's testimony from anesthesiologist Steven Shafer, who's been on the stand testifying for several days for the prosecution. Toward the end of the afternoon, Deputy District Attorney David Walgren presented Shafer with an infusion machine and asked him to demonstrate how Dr. Conrad Murray most likely set up a propofol drip for Michael Jackson.

The demo had a rough effect on the defendant, who whispered loudly to his friend and potential defense witness Dr. Paul White, "Can you believe that?" And White turned to the media present and said, "What a scumbag" as L.A. Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor summoned counsel into a meeting, called for a break and ultimately adjourned for the day.

Who's the "scumbag"? It's unclear exactly who White was referring to, but later he told E! News that he found Walgren's evidence presentation "unethical" and that his view of Shafer was forever changed. So it's anybody's guess!

In the meantime, the defense has yet to begin its cross-examination of Shafer, so there's pretty much no way Ed Chernoff and Michael Flanagan will be kicking off their case until next week.


http://www.eonline.com/news/Michael_Jackson_Manslaughter_Trial_Judge_Gags_Defense_Witness_After_Media_Outburst/270877


Elke more details about the "White" subject.. hehehe

In a development outside the presence of jurors, Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor set a Nov. 16 hearing to determine whether he should find defense expert Dr. Paul White in contempt for talking to a reporter on Thursday in violation of a gag order.

E! Entertainment reported Thursday on its website that White called either Shafer or Deputy District Attorney David Walgren a "scumbag."

White said in court that he didn't recall making the statement.

He told Pastor that he had talked to Walgren after the prosecutor pulled a tab from the side of a bottle of propofol that was recovered at Jackson's mansion.

He said he told Walgren it was "inappropriate to tamper with evidence found at the scene."

In a closed chambers meeting before court started on Friday, Walgren asked that White be expelled from the courtroom for the remainder of Shafer's testimony.

The judge declined, and Chernoff said he was embarrassed by the incident and he would ensure it didn't happen again. He said White had been hurt by Shafer's criticism of him during testimony.

Pastor previously ordered Chernoff's partner, Matt Alford, to appear at a contempt hearing over comments made during a network TV interview.


http://news.yahoo.com/jackson-doctors-defense-challenges-key-expert-211710268.html


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PostSubject: Re: Comments about the trial   9th October 2013, 4:38 pm

posted by The Fairy on Friday, October 21st 2011


The Fairy wrote:
Dr White should know better than to display bad manners like this and so far he has both made the judge react because he allegedly passed notes to the Defense attorneys and apparently said those words about dr Shafer. I think the judge could hold him in contempt of court if he wanted to. I dont know if that would still allow him to testify.
Earlier Friday I posted this.. seems like the judge is reading Flying Fairies... just joking, but a funny coincidence

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